RK, wehre are you?

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Robert Krten

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by Robert Krten » Mon Aug 04, 2003 1:17 pm

Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> wrote:
Is fs-ext2 as extensively tested on Q6 as it is on other platforms? I'd
much rather have a "native" solution from the OS vendor rather than a port.
Can I "newfs" an fs-ext2 partition? I'm not being argumentative, I genuinely
want to know...


We provide it btw, not a 3rd party. /lib/dll/fs-ext2.so. By default
But it's still a port :-) It's NIH as far as QSSL is concerned...

What about testing?
diskboot doesn't auto-mount them in /fs, but you can pass the -e option to
it so that it will. You can get the e2fsprogs package from QNX Online to
get e2fsck and friends. Although I found recently that mke2fs isn't handling
partition creation properly under QNX.


I've tried porting these things to Q6, and always ended up with grief. Something
didn't quite want to build, or there was some weird-ass dependency on some
module that had all kinds of linuxisms in it, or something else bad happened.
I'm willing to believe that things have improved significantly since then.


Yeah, mplayer actually uses SDL for output. MikeG (lestat) is keeping SDL
up and current on Photon. He just got all of it's overlay API working
properly. Poke around, there are a bunch of people with pre-built mplayer
binaries that work just great.
Perhaps I'll give it a try again...
Can I now rip movies off of a DVD drive under Q6?

Yes - and if you can build videoLan (something I have never tried) you should
even be play to play DVDs. I have a TV and a very nice DVD player for watching
movies, so I have never bothered to try.
Excellent.
gEDA isn't too bad at all. I've entered a schematic with about 18 74-series
chips, and the process was relatively smooth. You can get the postscript
output at:

Yeah, I have used gEDA. Have they made any improvements in the PCB side of
things? One package I always liked was Eagle. In fact, last time I was
using it I actually used it under FreeBSD (linux emulation) and Windows. On
FBSD it ran faster then under Linux. ;)
Dunno; never had to make a board yet :-) I used to use OrCad in the days
of WIN31, and I forget what its companion board layout package was...

Cheers,
-RK


--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that]
Robert Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:41 pm

Adam Mallory wrote:
John Nagle <nagle@downside.com> wrote in message
news:bge7tn$5h6$1@inn.qnx.com...
It's a real problem that there are so few third-party
QNX books. Robert Kriten has one useful book, and it's not
distributed through major channels.

This is not good for the future of QNX. If you don't have
a book on your product in the major bookstores, you're dead.

I think that's a little bit of wierd logic - the existance or lack of 3rd
party book(s) on a product does not corelate to ones 'liveness'. There is a
lot of 3rd party literature on many products which are dead.
Adam, and there is much literature of products which are alife!
I agree with John! Go in a bookstore and you will see that QNX is not
existing! But tons of books about other OSes are available.

What are 3 books for an OS which is existing more than 25 years? It must
be such a crazy system that only Frank and Rob dared to write about
although they were partly blocked... Talk with pot. customers and they
are irritated that not more books are available, and it's a bad sign for
them! It looks like: hands off!

You should think that QSSL is happy at least with these 3 great books,
but it's not the case.

M$ e.g. is promoting all books, papers, talks or whatever is available
about their products, and 3rd parties are promoted actively.

You can't expect it from QSSL, and they don't know for what reason they
should promote or resell the only existing 3 books.
The same for Rob's Neutrino training CD which comes with a student's
workbook and his "Getting started with Neutrino 2" book.
No travel expenses, fees etc, and the CD is always handy with the
student's workbook when anyone needs it. It's very helpful and
inexpensive with only CAD $750.00 (~ $537 US or 565 EUR)

BTW, all of our customers who bought it are very happy with it... and we
save much time for support ;-)

I don't see that it's competing against the QSSx training courses.
Every other OS vendor would be happy to promote such training stuff...

- Jutta

Adam Mallory

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Adam Mallory » Mon Aug 04, 2003 9:09 pm

Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2EA8E0.DA45B362@web.de...
Adam, and there is much literature of products which are alife!
I agree with John! Go in a bookstore and you will see that QNX is not
existing! But tons of books about other OSes are available.
The embedded market is a little more specialized. You won't see many books
on other embedded OSes, and those that you do see tend to be OSes that play
double duty with other domains (BSD, Linux etc).

Books on embedded systems, need to be priced with the $75(CAD) region or no
one buys them (this is a consumer bookstore). Most of them are a joke,
O'Reilly's book on building embedded systems, or the other with the
'toaster' on the cover are the main ones I've seen (and I go quite a lot).
What are 3 books for an OS which is existing more than 25 years? It must
be such a crazy system that only Frank and Rob dared to write about
although they were partly blocked... Talk with pot. customers and they
are irritated that not more books are available, and it's a bad sign for
them! It looks like: hands off!
I don't know what you mean by 'partly blocked' - I have no idea to the
politics of book publishing.
You should think that QSSL is happy at least with these 3 great books,
but it's not the case.
I have no idea what you're saying here - what possible reason could we not
be 'happy' with the books already published.
M$ e.g. is promoting all books, papers, talks or whatever is available
about their products, and 3rd parties are promoted actively.
Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to that
deep.
You can't expect it from QSSL, and they don't know for what reason they
should promote or resell the only existing 3 books.
The same for Rob's Neutrino training CD which comes with a student's
workbook and his "Getting started with Neutrino 2" book.
No travel expenses, fees etc, and the CD is always handy with the
student's workbook when anyone needs it. It's very helpful and
inexpensive with only CAD $750.00 (~ $537 US or 565 EUR)

BTW, all of our customers who bought it are very happy with it... and we
save much time for support ;-)
I would suggest that the exact opposite is true - we find that the last
thing customers want to hear is that after buying their dev. seat, they
should fork out some more money for books. Their response is that any info
in the book we suggest, we should already provide it in our dev. seat. I
know I've suggested Rob's book many times on many occasions - I don't think
I like the suggestion that we (and that would include me as QNX) don't want
to support 3rd party books.
I don't see that it's competing against the QSSx training courses.
Every other OS vendor would be happy to promote such training stuff...
I don't think we see it that way either.

-Adam

kirk

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by kirk » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:35 am

Robert Krten <rk@parse.com> wrote:
Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> wrote:

[SNIP]

There are also some technical reasons why I've switched to freeBSD;
the fact that it supports >4GB file size, MPEG movie players, schematic
capture packages, etc, etc.


The limit is actually 2GB on qnx4fs (signed 32bit value). I am pretty
sure that fs-ext2 can do >2GB files (I am sure Daryl or John will correct
me if I am wrong - both of the ext2 partitions I have on my boxes are
sub 2G).
From the fs-ext2.so docs:
The following features are not currently supported:
large files (> 2 GB)
Is fs-ext2 as extensively tested on Q6 as it is on other platforms? I'd
much rather have a "native" solution from the OS vendor rather than a port.
Can I "newfs" an fs-ext2 partition? I'm not being argumentative, I genuinely
want to know...
From the fs-ext2.so docs:
we don't recommend using fs-ext2.so as a replacement for the QNX 4
filesystem (fs-qnx4.so)

other support utilities (e.g. mke2fs) are not currently available for
QNX 6

It would appear that fs-ext2.so isn't a "native" solution. I would guess
that fs-ext2.so testing would be a low priority.

The online docs for fs-ext2.so are at:
http://www.qnx.com/developer/docs/momen ... t2.so.html

--
Kirk Russell Bridlewood Software Testers Guild

Miguel Simon

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Miguel Simon » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:03 pm

Adam...

Here is a thought: since QSSL does not have a book such as RK's
existing and upcoming book, why not provide RK's upcoming book as an
option or as a value added to the faithful customers that buy a
developer's seat such as myself? I know I would have been extremely
happy with that! :) Even if you add the value of the book to what
people pay already, well, perhaps not too many people would complain.

I have the system architecture book that comes with the developer's
seat, and I know that RK's book complement any and all books from QSSL.
Incidentally, this is also true for the QNX 4.2x line of products. We
have -all- of the QSSL documentation and reference books, but we also
have RK's book for QNX 4.2x. I see that both approaches (QSSL doc +
RK's book) work well together to explain the likes of QNX.

Lastly, back then when I was a beginner with QNX 4.2x, it was RK's book
in QNX 4.2x which explained what the QSSL doc's said and could not
follow. :) Only after reading RK's book was I able to understand,
fallow and appreciate QSSL printed docs.

Regards...

Miguel

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:05 pm

Adam Mallory wrote:
Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2EA8E0.DA45B362@web.de...
Adam, and there is much literature of products which are alife!
I agree with John! Go in a bookstore and you will see that QNX is
not existing! But tons of books about other OSes are available.

The embedded market is a little more specialized.
Please have in mind that QNX is still used in industrial automation,
but it's probably only a question of time...

You won't see many books on other embedded OSes,
and those that you do see tend to be OSes that play
double duty with other domains (BSD, Linux etc).

Books on embedded systems, need to be priced with the $75(CAD) region or no
one buys them (this is a consumer bookstore). Most of them are a joke,
O'Reilly's book on building embedded systems, or the other with the
'toaster' on the cover are the main ones I've seen (and I go quite a lot).

What are 3 books for an OS which is existing more than 25 years? It must
be such a crazy system that only Frank and Rob dared to write about
although they were partly blocked... Talk with pot. customers and they
are irritated that not more books are available, and it's a bad sign for
them! It looks like: hands off!

I don't know what you mean by 'partly blocked' - I have no idea to the
politics of book publishing.
"block" means for me to work against something...

You should think that QSSL is happy at least with these 3 great books,
but it's not the case.

I have no idea what you're saying here - what possible reason could we not
be 'happy' with the books already published.
hmm... how long are you at QSSL ???

M$ e.g. is promoting all books, papers, talks or whatever is available
about their products, and 3rd parties are promoted actively.

Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to that
deep.
sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...

You can't expect it from QSSL, and they don't know for what reason they
should promote or resell the only existing 3 books.
The same for Rob's Neutrino training CD which comes with a student's
workbook and his "Getting started with Neutrino 2" book.
No travel expenses, fees etc, and the CD is always handy with the
student's workbook when anyone needs it. It's very helpful and
inexpensive with only CAD $750.00 (~ $537 US or 565 EUR)

BTW, all of our customers who bought it are very happy with it... and we
save much time for support ;-)

I would suggest that the exact opposite is true
hmm... our perspective is the one of a 3rd Party who has to give mainly
support for QNX related questions instead of for own products...
Please have in mind, that we are giving much QNX support free of charge,
so we are happy that most support questions of our customers are already
answered in Frank's and Rob's books and Rob's training :-)

- we find that the last
thing customers want to hear is that after buying their dev. seat, they
should fork out some more money for books.
The prices for the book or training are peanuts compared with the price
for Momentics.

We list books and training at the end of our price lists ... and the
books are part of our starter kits.

Can you tell me why we are often asked if there are not more books
available? Your experience is not according our experience...

Their response is that any info
in the book we suggest, we should already provide it in our dev. seat.
It sounds like your customers are not ours... but I know that our
customers are QNX customers, too ;-)

I know I've suggested Rob's book many times on many occasions - I don't think
I like the suggestion that we (and that would include me as QNX) don't want
to support 3rd party books.
You are not the only QSSL employee thinking in that way, but is your
management thinking in the same way ??

I don't see that it's competing against the QSSx training courses.
Every other OS vendor would be happy to promote such training stuff...

I don't think we see it that way either.
sure, you can't compare QSSx with other OS vendors ... ;-)

Cheers,
Jutta

Bill Caroselli

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Bill Caroselli » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:41 pm

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2FABAE.75EB5B59@web.de...
Adam Mallory wrote:


Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to that
deep.

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...
Didn't they use to have a chapter of RK's book in the helpviewer pages.
That's a pretty decent plug. Then again, I don't see it there anymore :(

Guest

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Guest » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:42 pm

Miguel Simon <simon@ou.edu> wrote:
Here is a thought: since QSSL does not have a book such as RK's
existing and upcoming book, why not provide RK's upcoming book as an
option or as a value added to the faithful customers that buy a
developer's seat such as myself? I know I would have been extremely
happy with that! :) Even if you add the value of the book to what
people pay already, well, perhaps not too many people would complain.

I have the system architecture book that comes with the developer's
seat, and I know that RK's book complement any and all books from QSSL.
Incidentally, this is also true for the QNX 4.2x line of products. We
have -all- of the QSSL documentation and reference books, but we also
have RK's book for QNX 4.2x. I see that both approaches (QSSL doc +
RK's book) work well together to explain the likes of QNX.

Lastly, back then when I was a beginner with QNX 4.2x, it was RK's book
in QNX 4.2x which explained what the QSSL doc's said and could not
follow. :) Only after reading RK's book was I able to understand,
fallow and appreciate QSSL printed docs.
I get the feeling that you think I'm not all for more books - I am all for
more books.

I'm not familar with the process to make a book part of our offering, nor am
I familar with any politics surrounding the book(s) (nor do I wish to be).

-Adam

Guest

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Guest » Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:56 pm

Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
Please have in mind that QNX is still used in industrial automation,
but it's probably only a question of time...
That's not quite what I meant. I meant to indicate that due to the
specialized nature of our domain, books carried by the likes of
Chapters etc (big box book stores here in Canada) make it very
hard to get high end books in stock.
"block" means for me to work against something...
I know what the word means, I just don't understand it in the context you
put it in.
hmm... how long are you at QSSL ???
Not that long - a couple years maybe.
sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...
Well if it's just references and the like, sure I don't see any harm in that.
Promotion is a much broader term though, and could have included distribution
of 'promotional copies' etc etc.
hmm... our perspective is the one of a 3rd Party who has to give mainly
support for QNX related questions instead of for own products...
Please have in mind, that we are giving much QNX support free of charge,
so we are happy that most support questions of our customers are already
answered in Frank's and Rob's books and Rob's training :-)
I have not doubt that the books are a great learning tool.
The prices for the book or training are peanuts compared with the price
for Momentics.
It isn't about the price, it's about the appearance. Customers don't
like to pay more when it comes to documentation (of any type).
We list books and training at the end of our price lists ... and the
books are part of our starter kits.
Can you tell me why we are often asked if there are not more books
available? Your experience is not according our experience...
That's fine - your experience could very well be different from ours.
It sounds like your customers are not ours... but I know that our
customers are QNX customers, too ;-)
Sounds exactly like two different customers domains.
You are not the only QSSL employee thinking in that way, but is your
management thinking in the same way ??
I haven't got a clue as to the politics, thus I can't really talk about something
I don't know.

-Adam

Chris McKillop

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by Chris McKillop » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:30 pm

But it's still a port :-) It's NIH as far as QSSL is concerned...

What about testing?
Port? It was written clean-room to the spec. I won't call it a port. :)

chris

--
Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> "The faster I go, the behinder I get."
Software Engineer, QSSL -- Lewis Carroll --
http://qnx.wox.org/

Chris McKillop

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by Chris McKillop » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:34 pm

From the fs-ext2.so docs:
The following features are not currently supported:
large files (> 2 GB)
See, told ya someone would correct me. Funny, I tried making a big ext2
partition to test with a big file when I could have just checked the docs!
I wonder why we don't support the larger files, AFAIK there is no technical
reason we couldn't.
From the fs-ext2.so docs:
we don't recommend using fs-ext2.so as a replacement for the QNX 4
filesystem (fs-qnx4.so)

other support utilities (e.g. mke2fs) are not currently available for
QNX 6

It would appear that fs-ext2.so isn't a "native" solution. I would guess
that fs-ext2.so testing would be a low priority.
Well, I know it gets tested somewhat since the PRs I have opened get closed. :)

chris

--
Chris McKillop <cdm@qnx.com> "The faster I go, the behinder I get."
Software Engineer, QSSL -- Lewis Carroll --
http://qnx.wox.org/

Robert Krten

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Robert Krten » Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:58 pm

Bill Caroselli <QTPS@earthlink.net> wrote:
"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2FABAE.75EB5B59@web.de...
Adam Mallory wrote:


Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to that
deep.

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...


Didn't they use to have a chapter of RK's book in the helpviewer pages.
That's a pretty decent plug. Then again, I don't see it there anymore :(
It's supposed to be there. I've contacted the person responsible, this is
the second time they've dropped it :-(

Cheers,
-RK

--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that]
Robert Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/

Andrew Thomas

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by Andrew Thomas » Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:51 pm

On 5 Aug 2003 00:35:51 GMT, kirk <kirussel@NOSPAM.rogers.com> wrote:
From the fs-ext2.so docs:
we don't recommend using fs-ext2.so as a replacement for the QNX 4
filesystem (fs-qnx4.so)

other support utilities (e.g. mke2fs) are not currently available for
QNX 6

It would appear that fs-ext2.so isn't a "native" solution. I would guess
that fs-ext2.so testing would be a low priority.
Well, ext3 is the more interesting file system anyway. What are QNX's
plans for ext3 support? If that were available, I would use it ahead
of the QNX4 file system. My guess is that ext3 support is a good test
case for QNX's commitment to the ext2 file system.

Cheers,
Andrew

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:55 pm

Bill Caroselli wrote:
"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2FABAE.75EB5B59@web.de...
Adam Mallory wrote:


Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to that
deep.

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...


Didn't they use to have a chapter of RK's book in the helpviewer pages.
That's a pretty decent plug. Then again, I don't see it there anymore :(
When you put "book" into their search engine, so you have bad luck, the
same when looking for "literature". But looking for "training" or "video
training", so the 10th or 3rd link is PARSE's press release of the
training stuff.

It's more effective to search for QNX books in a public search engine.

- Jutta

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:09 pm

amallory@cronus.ott.qnx.com wrote:
Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:

Please have in mind that QNX is still used in industrial automation,
but it's probably only a question of time...

That's not quite what I meant. I meant to indicate that due to the
specialized nature of our domain, books carried by the likes of
Chapters etc (big box book stores here in Canada) make it very
hard to get high end books in stock.
In Germany I talked with Lehmanns some years ago, it's a huge book store
for all sciences with many subs in most cities with universities.
They have listed the books and they can be ordered also in their online
shop http://www.LOB.de

We are offering also the books and the training stuff in order to make
the life easier for us and our German and international customers.

BTW, the Russian QNX distributor made a translation of the Neutrino book
and I'm sure it was not just for fun...

BTW, we have europeanized the student's workbook of the training stuff
and ship it with files with 4 rings and sheets in DIN A4 format.
"block" means for me to work against something...

I know what the word means, I just don't understand it in the context you
put it in.

hmm... how long are you at QSSL ???

Not that long - a couple years maybe.
ok, so you should ask others who are longer at QSSL ;-)

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...

Well if it's just references and the like, sure I don't see any harm in that.
Promotion is a much broader term though, and could have included distribution
of 'promotional copies' etc etc.
distribution of the books from QSSx is what customers would appreciate,
but a distribution like a short time in the past with PARSE's QNX4 book
makes no sense as nobody knew that it was available via QSSx subs ...

When you have to do with purchase offices, especially from big
companies, you will know that it's much more convenient for a developer
to order the books and/or training stuff just from the same source
instead of from different sources. Big companies have often a very
unflexible administration, so it's nearly impossible for some developers
to order books or training stuff separately.

hmm... our perspective is the one of a 3rd Party who has to give mainly
support for QNX related questions instead of for own products...
Please have in mind, that we are giving much QNX support free of charge,
so we are happy that most support questions of our customers are already
answered in Frank's and Rob's books and Rob's training :-)

I have not doubt that the books are a great learning tool.

The prices for the book or training are peanuts compared with the price
for Momentics.

It isn't about the price, it's about the appearance. Customers don't
like to pay more when it comes to documentation (of any type).
Be sure that most customers would buy the books from QSSx together with
dev. seats when it's just offered as option. Newbies are happy to get
helpful literature...

We list books and training at the end of our price lists ... and the
books are part of our starter kits.
Can you tell me why we are often asked if there are not more books
available? Your experience is not according our experience...

That's fine - your experience could very well be different from ours.
Sure, but our customers which need QNX-based fieldbus stuff, Soft-PLCs
etc. are located on all continents and they are a subset from QSSx
customers ;-) We are 3rd party and don't bundle our products with QNX,
so our customers are definitely your customers, too!

It sounds like your customers are not ours... but I know that our
customers are QNX customers, too ;-)

Sounds exactly like two different customers domains.
Your share of customers in industrial automation is shrinking, but QSSL
made the most profit with them in the past...

A Germany saying is:
Don't saw on the branch you are sitting on.

You are not the only QSSL employee thinking in that way, but is your
management thinking in the same way ??

I haven't got a clue as to the politics, thus I can't really talk about something
I don't know.
Adam, everyone who want's to find literature can have a look to public
search engines and has a chance to find the books and training. But
ordering would often be more comfortable if it would be available from
QSSx, too.

- Jutta

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