RK, wehre are you?

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Adam Mallory

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Adam Mallory » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:07 pm

Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F300EFB.6C831469@web.de...
In Germany I talked with Lehmanns some years ago, it's a huge book store
for all sciences with many subs in most cities with universities.
They have listed the books and they can be ordered also in their online
shop http://www.LOB.de

We are offering also the books and the training stuff in order to make
the life easier for us and our German and international customers.

BTW, the Russian QNX distributor made a translation of the Neutrino book
and I'm sure it was not just for fun...

BTW, we have europeanized the student's workbook of the training stuff
and ship it with files with 4 rings and sheets in DIN A4 format.
Fair enough, but I don't really look at German sites when I'm hunting a book
down. I have no doubt that it's available to purchase, just saying it's not
exactly a common book on the shelves here.
ok, so you should ask others who are longer at QSSL ;-)
Pass - politics are not my strong suit.
distribution of the books from QSSx is what customers would appreciate,
but a distribution like a short time in the past with PARSE's QNX4 book
makes no sense as nobody knew that it was available via QSSx subs ...

When you have to do with purchase offices, especially from big
companies, you will know that it's much more convenient for a developer
to order the books and/or training stuff just from the same source
instead of from different sources. Big companies have often a very
unflexible administration, so it's nearly impossible for some developers
to order books or training stuff separately.
I totally agree, it is much easier all around to get the book at dev seat
purchase time. The only thing that I know is an issue (as it is always an
issue) is price (everyone wants everything as cheap as possible - who
doesn't?).
Be sure that most customers would buy the books from QSSx together with
dev. seats when it's just offered as option. Newbies are happy to get
helpful literature...
I think we both agree that's true - as to the mechanics of doing so, I'll
leave that to the people in power.
Sure, but our customers which need QNX-based fieldbus stuff, Soft-PLCs
etc. are located on all continents and they are a subset from QSSx
customers ;-) We are 3rd party and don't bundle our products with QNX,
so our customers are definitely your customers, too!
Oh, I understand your customers are our customers as well, and I don't
debate that the book is useful (needs an update though). I just don't
handle the actual 'doing' of this, so I can't really say much more on it.
Your share of customers in industrial automation is shrinking, but QSSL
made the most profit with them in the past...

A Germany saying is:
Don't saw on the branch you are sitting on.
<Note: this isn't a comment on the Industrial automation domain>

Addendum: Sometimes the only way a tree can survive is to loose a few limbs.
Adam, everyone who want's to find literature can have a look to public
search engines and has a chance to find the books and training. But
ordering would often be more comfortable if it would be available from
QSSx, too.
I agree with you - you don't have to say the same point over and over. As
I've mentioned, I just don't (nor wish to) have knowledge how/why things are
setup the way they are now. The people to aim this to are you sales rep,
and if that isn't satisfactory have them escalate it.

'nuff said about all this, next topic please. ;)

-Adam

Bill Caroselli

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Bill Caroselli » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:15 pm

Fount it!

It's not in the helpviewer per se.

Go the the silly "Welcome" screen that we all try to ignore. Click on the
"development" heading. It's about 1/4 to 1/3 the way down the page.


"Robert Krten" <rk@parse.com> wrote in message
news:bgok7e$n65$1@inn.qnx.com...
Bill Caroselli <QTPS@earthlink.net> wrote:

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2FABAE.75EB5B59@web.de...
Adam Mallory wrote:


Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to
that
deep.

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...


Didn't they use to have a chapter of RK's book in the helpviewer pages.
That's a pretty decent plug. Then again, I don't see it there anymore
:(

It's supposed to be there. I've contacted the person responsible, this is
the second time they've dropped it :-(

Cheers,
-RK

--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to
you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that]
Robert Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/

Robert Krten

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Robert Krten » Tue Aug 05, 2003 9:15 pm

Bill Caroselli <QTPS@earthlink.net> wrote:
Fount it!

It's not in the helpviewer per se.

Go the the silly "Welcome" screen that we all try to ignore. Click on the
"development" heading. It's about 1/4 to 1/3 the way down the page.
Hmmm... I wouldn't call that a sample chapter :-( It doesn't even have
a contact or ISBN number :-(

And that stupid little welcome screen doesn't allow you to grab its sides
and resize it! :-)

Cheers,
-RK
"Robert Krten" <rk@parse.com> wrote in message
news:bgok7e$n65$1@inn.qnx.com...
Bill Caroselli <QTPS@earthlink.net> wrote:

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2FABAE.75EB5B59@web.de...
Adam Mallory wrote:


Comparing use to M$ isn't fair - our pockets are not even close to
that
deep.

sorry, but promoting has not to mean paying for it.

e.g. links, list something etc. don't cost money, but it demonstrates
that it's recommended...


Didn't they use to have a chapter of RK's book in the helpviewer pages.
That's a pretty decent plug. Then again, I don't see it there anymore
:(

It's supposed to be there. I've contacted the person responsible, this is
the second time they've dropped it :-(

Cheers,
-RK

--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to
you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that]
Robert Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/

--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that]
Robert Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/

Paul May

Re: RK, wehre are you?

Post by Paul May » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:47 am

Miguel Simon <simon@ou.edu> wrote:
Hi RK...

Robert Krten wrote:

I'm having some doubts about my ability to market the new book.
The short story is that I've contacted QSSL's VP of marketing, Dave
Curley, and frankly have not been very thrilled with the response
(or, more specifically, lack thereof).

Did you use to work at QSSL?

On contract for a few years, a few years ago...

I've talked with Dan Dodge, and he is looking into the third party
situation. Unfortunately, Dan's been away for a while and just got
back a few days ago, and prolly has a pile of work waiting for him.

Do you know Dan Dodge personaly?

Yup.

In order to make the book be worthwhile, I'd need to have some kind
of marketing channel to get the message out. Currently, about three
people in total have contacted me about it (you are number four :-)).

I wonder if you could contact some universities, and perhaps they can
use QNX + your book to teach a real-time-embedded OS class with it?

I've had grief with Universities. Their bookstores tend to buy
100 books, and then return 97 of them. Some may be slightly
damaged, and I have to charge them for that, adjust the discount
schedules -- it's a warehousing/inventory nightmare.
So, the educational program has been discontinued, and the university
bookstores are now treated same as any other distributor -- returns
only allowed for damaged books.

QNX News was great for third parties, but QSSL has decided for their
own reasons not to continue with it -- hey, it's their business
decision, not mine :-) "The little guy is dead" is still, unfortunately,
very much the case with QSSL's marketing department. I see some hope
that that will change, but it's getting to the point of too little
too late.

In short, unless I can get some kind of help from QSSL's marketing
department, it doesn't look very promising (let alone writing about
the IDE which I know nothing about -- and I *hate* writing about stuff
that I know nothing about :-)).

So... show of hands of everyone who wants the book? I'd need to see
*several hundred* hands in order to break even.

Humm... I gather that you will not publish your book? I am willing to
buy your book even in manuscript form. At least that would be money for
a beer and a pizza! 0$0
-

I might still publish it -- I have about 200 pages done, so there's a fair
bit invested in it. It's a tradeoff between throwing good money after
bad; where do you cut your losses?

There are also some technical reasons why I've switched to freeBSD;

Is there a market for freeBSD? I guess that if you publish a book,
there is a market...

FreeBSD is for my own amusement. Contract work will still be done on
whatever non-Windoze O/S the customer chooses :-)

the fact that it supports >4GB file size, MPEG movie players, schematic
capture packages, etc, etc. In short, *I* personally need a desktop
O/S that is up-to-date with the modern drivers and applications.
Some of this is definitely outside of QSSL's market -- they're not a
desktop-O/S company, and that's fine, but I need a desktop O/S and
I don't want to be running several operating systems (learning one
and learning it well is enough of a challenge). I've just spent the
last two days freeBSD-ifying my machines. Mostly the time was spent
copying data from QNX partitions via FTP to freeBSD partitions.
Some more days will be spent porting my QNX applications (caller ID,
SMDR, full-text-retrieval, spam AEF system, etc) and figuring out
things like POP3 mail, HTTP/PHP servers and the like.

Do people use freeBSD for serious business?

Tons of webservers are FreeBSD based, for example...
you probably already know this but check out
http://www.pegasosppc.com/operating_systems.php

thats one of the phinixi developers babys, as you can see
theres rtp nearly finished porting (ask Dan about it)
and your current play thing freeBSD and netBSD in the early stages,
in the meantime you might get some milage out of the openBSD port
for your books, the Aros is the free open Amiga 3.1 OS boots fine
and getting there, wereas the main AmigaLike OS, runs compliant
amiga apps fine im told MUI PPC native as it GUI, i dont have 1 yet
so not first hand info, is the MorphOS.

ask on the http://www.moobunny.com were Greenboy and the gang
will perhaps read your plight regarding getting backing for your
books, and how knows perhaps a deal can be made for your cooperation
with the phinixi/MorphOS comercial projects, iv always thought
its good to include a reference book with your new Hardware
as per the old Commodore Amiga A1000/500/2000/2500/3000/3500/600/1200/C32/4000
------- ---- - - - - - - - - - LOL

the basic idea as aways and i told Dan that he should have done something
simlar (take a look at any old amiga manual and u find that its simple
page 1 this is the amiga (peg/Morph/free*/whatever) workbench, do this
to start your first app, basic simple click this do that ect,
by page 6 or 7 your getting into more advanced detail as regards
the average longer time user that can grasp cli/shell, your giving them
a quick reference and a practical type this to acheave that type
of thing perhaps that fist book always has a scimatic of the motherboard
on the back few pages and that got used by a hell of a lot of people
starting out on thier HW/SW hacking, that book in effect was an
intro to the amiga (in our case it would be the Peg or the OS).

then the good stuff started to happen, several books became available
that continued the basic intro book that was shiped with every HW/SW
bundle.

in your case the hardware guys are all amiga boys so they will
already know the format and the drawings for their hw backpage, you
know rtp and BSD and the other like os's i forget weather you use(ed)
an amiga for anything (other than play and kick it about LOL)
but these books would idealy follow the old RKM manuals.

you would need to adapt the format for which topic your covering
hardware (under the HW guys advice/guidance) RTP your prefered
choice i assume, or the other OS that can/will run of the Peg
and other currently unreleased projects of the future.

basicly as regards RTP it should have beem like this,
1, we know you can do all this great stuff with Photon
but weres the fully compileable code, weres the ready compiled
exe to run.

2 relying on 3rd partys to hopefully write and release fully working
and consistant code when thier trying to leaarn it as they go
is not realistic.

the amiga RKMs (rom kerel manuals, in this case the amiga OS)
did a really simple thing.

i got a cd with every conceavable GUI trick both in executable form
AND in fully compilable code (later ones have a compiler and
fully documented OS3.9 C updates).

so in the case of amiga it would be this is how you make a cli command
that can open a Photon window and display yes/ on clickable buttons (wedgets)
open a cli, type
requestchoice "yes" "no"

will give you a 2 button gadget (wedget)the the GUI desktop, click
1 of them and the requestchoice cli app will have the click result
returned to the cli for more processing of you so wished,theres
a little self test for you later in the book.

take a look in the CD/wereever/requestchoice or requesttext
dirs and look at how the gadget is make and adapt it to your needs
as required in your future projects.

---------------------------------

the basic premise is that you get a short example of how to
do a posific thing, you get a recompiled app to click on run
AND you get a fully compileable source code to try for yourself
and hopefully begin by cut&past several bits together produce
your own masterpeaces that if your a seasoned other OS developer
it becomes almost childsPlay to see how this OS under whatever
related book your doing with Phx/Morph relates/changes what you
already know.

if qnxRTP had collected all the inhouse/home pet working test
snippets of code as relates to Photon,and followed the amiga RKM way
we might have had a far better uptake on porting to Photon rather
than straight Xphoton coding as i had tryed to stress even before
the first public release, i guess the people that used amiga's
and the were used to the way it works didnt hear or understand me,
i know i do have a way of overtyping everything, but i leave it
to greenboy and other tec writters to clean up my basic ideas,
hope u got this txt , its important, NO REALLY it IS.

anyway rob, have a chat with GB and see if the buys can find
a place for you on the team,its werth a few rounds at least,
and you do like the OS's on/coming to Peg*.
---------
sorry for the below:
GB, if your reading this check the phinixi email logs
and see my current 81.97.25.56 IP note that i cant get in
and the pass wasn't put back in/or wrongly when Phx core/wiki
moved servers i assume.

please slap the pass i sent in that log and ill try again
sometime tomorrow, or tell me were you will be tomorrow/friday
and ill try and get some time on IRC or something, no direct
email out for me at the mo, but u can try sending to pop@the-ip-above,
if iv managed it as a temp thing there should be a email server
going and letting pop3/smtp in/out for a day or so.

ill repoll now, its 3.5am thurs your time now
I'll still run a QNX 6 box for contract work, but it will be the
exception rather than the rule. Contract work on QNX 6 has been
almost nonexistant. Again, this is IMHO a direct result of QSSL's
marketing department's lack of interest in 3rd parties and "the
little guy." I have no plans to be a "big guy" -- I'm happy doing
what I'm doing.

So, sorry for the rant, but *you asked* :-)

Oh well..., perhaps one day we meet and I'll buy you a beer! (I do not
drink, so you'll have to tell me which beer to buy!)

:-)

Cheers,
-RK

--
[If replying via email, you'll need to click on the URL that's emailed to you
afterwards to forward the email to me -- spam filters and all that] Robert
Krten, PDP minicomputer collector http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/
Paul May, Manchester, UK,
*Phoenix* Core © 1999, Phoenix Developer Consortium © 2000, *Team* Phx © 1999
Phinixi Technologies International LTD © 2000, Phinixi © 2000

Igor Kovalenko

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Igor Kovalenko » Thu Aug 07, 2003 5:52 am

"Adam Mallory" <amallory@qnx.com> wrote in message
news:bgmi2b$plt$1@nntp.qnx.com...
Jutta Steinhoff <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2EA8E0.DA45B362@web.de...
Adam, and there is much literature of products which are alife!
I agree with John! Go in a bookstore and you will see that QNX is not
existing! But tons of books about other OSes are available.

The embedded market is a little more specialized. You won't see many
books
on other embedded OSes, and those that you do see tend to be OSes that
play
double duty with other domains (BSD, Linux etc).

Books on embedded systems, need to be priced with the $75(CAD) region or
no
one buys them (this is a consumer bookstore). Most of them are a joke,
O'Reilly's book on building embedded systems, or the other with the
'toaster' on the cover are the main ones I've seen (and I go quite a lot).
An ironic thing is, QNX also needs a book on the general aspects of using
the system. Lot of users feel alien in QNX even coming from Unix background,
let alone others. Yet writing such a book would be waste of energy for the
author, since there simply is not a lot of potential readers. People go and
buy a book mostly when they want to a) learn something new and/or
fundamentally interesting to keep up to date with technology or b) learn
something that can help to find a job or otherwise help you in your job. QNX
is neither particularly new (been around forever in public's mind), nor does
it have lot of major fundamental concepts to learn/borrow from, nor is it
particuarly hot in the job market. If we forget about our passion and face
the truth, QNX is (in the cold market share terms) just a 2nd tier
specialized embedded OS, that does not generate any buzz. That's not to say
it is a bad OS, or that it does not deserve a credit for what it does well,
but it is not anything fascinating for the majority of people. If anything,
it stikes people as an odd duck - a microkernel with strictly synchronous
message passing.

So, there won't be too many folks rushing into stores to buy a book. Which
means nobody will want to publish it, except at the cost of the author,
which is going to lead to high price of the book because of low quantity...
which means even the geeks who would be interested in something as obscure
as an embedded OS in the first place, would not bother either. Ask Rob, he
knows...

An analitical book (comparative analisys against others systems) is really
missing too (if anyone cares, except silly me). Writing that one is even
less practical. There are fewer people who'd understand it. There are fewer
people who'd be able to write it... And if someone bothered, he'd learn
better than to involve himself in this kind of deal... Strictly hush-hush
stuff it is, with QNX.

Quite amusingly, people jump around inquiring about the lack of QNX books
for the last dozen years... why still hordes of writers aren't rushing to
write one more... Must be some kind of conspiracy, obviously ;)

-- igor

Steve Reid

Re: Lack of QNX books

Post by Steve Reid » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:09 pm

Igor Kovalenko <kovalenko@attbi.com> wrote:
: An ironic thing is, QNX also needs a book on the general aspects of using
: the system. Lot of users feel alien in QNX even coming from Unix background,
: let alone others. Yet writing such a book would be waste of energy for the
: author, since there simply is not a lot of potential readers.

For what it's worth, we're working on a Neutrino User's Guide (to replace
the Sys Admin guide that never got finished). We hope to release it with 6.3.

------------------------------------------
Steve Reid stever@qnx.com
TechPubs (Technical Publications)
QNX Software Systems
------------------------------------------

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