QNX6 vs WinCE?

bridged with qdn.public.qnxrtp.advocacy
Bill Caroselli

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Bill Caroselli » Fri Aug 01, 2003 1:28 pm

Jutta

I think your missing teh point. I'm certain that you missed the point when
you replied to my post. I'm NOT advocating that anyone break the EULA.
I've worked with QNX for 17 years and I'd like to see them around for
another 17 years. So I know they need to make some money.

But I'm saying that QSSL should make it much easier to comply with the EULA.
If they price their product so astronomically high for individuals and small
companies then people will bend the rules. I'm saying make the rules more
fair and most people will honor them.

I have sold add on products for QNX. I just supply the software and give
support for installing and using it. I will also give support for QNX in
general (for an added price).

Wouldn't it be a good thing if QSSL let me buy say 20 runtimes and resell
them one at a time? They would make some money from people who might
otherwise have just used NC inappropriately *AND* I would assume the
responsibility of fielding tech support questions from people that I sold
the product (QNX runtime) to.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...
Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I
have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and
round
and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you can look
good
to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you
are
willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO
warranty
to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...
Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for your
troubles
in regards to the installer.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28567C.D8982821@web.de...

Camz, I can't follow you.

The only I understand is that you are not familiar with non
C-development systems ...

- Jutta


camz@passageway.com wrote:

Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
Yes ... I'm the *DEVELOPER* and I'm not an OEM or VAR.

So there is no issue with you buying qnx runtimes and then
offering
them
to your customers (aside from not being able to easily package
that
up
for them to install).

Just to make it simple and clear: I'm not the OEM and I'm not
interested
to sell QNX.

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You don't have any problem
purchasing
the runtimes, your problem is that you don't want to do it.
That is
a
very different problem. In this case, the requirement for your
customer
to buy a development seat is not QSS's "fault", it is yours for
refusing
to sell the runtime licensing along with your product.

They have to give at least the warrenty that their system
works as
documented ...

Actually, they don't. And to be quite honest, you probably
don't
list
off
to your customers what the OS does since its an enabling layer
that
technically
does not do anything until you actually want to run an app.

Again: I'm not in the position to handle all warranty and
legal
issues
of their OS in place of QSSL.

Again, this is a restriction that *YOU* have placed on yourself.
In
all
honesty though, this "requirement" is not unique to you, or QNX.
You'd
have
the same issue with any other OS, so it's harldy fair to
complain
that
it
is QSS's fault that you would need to deal with it and are not
prepared
and/or
are unwilling to do so. Sounds like you want to be in the
business
of
writing software, but not in the business of selling it, and
just
hoping
that someone will magically pay you.

There are other alternatives :)

Sure, you could use Linux, have all the same issues, and not
have
anyone
to complain to. (you certainly wouldn't have any hope in hell of
providing
any sort of warranty for the OS, let alone any app developed on
it).

Cheers,
Camz.

--
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com

Kevin Stallard

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Kevin Stallard » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:26 pm

I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...
Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I
have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and
round
and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you can look
good
to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you
are
willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO
warranty
to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...
Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for your
troubles
in regards to the installer.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28567C.D8982821@web.de...

Camz, I can't follow you.

The only I understand is that you are not familiar with non
C-development systems ...

- Jutta


camz@passageway.com wrote:

Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
Yes ... I'm the *DEVELOPER* and I'm not an OEM or VAR.

So there is no issue with you buying qnx runtimes and then
offering
them
to your customers (aside from not being able to easily package
that
up
for them to install).

Just to make it simple and clear: I'm not the OEM and I'm not
interested
to sell QNX.

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You don't have any problem
purchasing
the runtimes, your problem is that you don't want to do it.
That is
a
very different problem. In this case, the requirement for your
customer
to buy a development seat is not QSS's "fault", it is yours for
refusing
to sell the runtime licensing along with your product.

They have to give at least the warrenty that their system
works as
documented ...

Actually, they don't. And to be quite honest, you probably
don't
list
off
to your customers what the OS does since its an enabling layer
that
technically
does not do anything until you actually want to run an app.

Again: I'm not in the position to handle all warranty and
legal
issues
of their OS in place of QSSL.

Again, this is a restriction that *YOU* have placed on yourself.
In
all
honesty though, this "requirement" is not unique to you, or QNX.
You'd
have
the same issue with any other OS, so it's harldy fair to
complain
that
it
is QSS's fault that you would need to deal with it and are not
prepared
and/or
are unwilling to do so. Sounds like you want to be in the
business
of
writing software, but not in the business of selling it, and
just
hoping
that someone will magically pay you.

There are other alternatives :)

Sure, you could use Linux, have all the same issues, and not
have
anyone
to complain to. (you certainly wouldn't have any hope in hell of
providing
any sort of warranty for the OS, let alone any app developed on
it).

Cheers,
Camz.

--
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com

Rennie Allen

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Rennie Allen » Fri Aug 01, 2003 2:56 pm

Bill Caroselli wrote:
I would love QSSL to sell runtimes only too. But there is a very practicle
problem.

If someone buys something, they have right to expact a certain amoutn of
support. So if I were to write a super-automated grmip frizzle and tell my
potnetial customers all they need is a runnning QNX system to install my
product, they may think that they can go out and spend $15 to buy a QNX
runtime system. Now, when they get their CD, just imagine if it didn't
install right out of the box!?!?!?!? So they try to call QSSL for help? If
QSSL has to answer the phone just once they already lost money on the deal.
I wouldn't blame QSSL for not fielding those calls.
Many other companies (like Microsoft) have solved this problem. When you call
the support line they ask for a credit card. $150.00 flat fee per support
question. A customer is correct in expecting that support is available. They
are naive if they assume support is free. QSS would either A) make a tidy
little profit on support if customers used the facility or B) expend almost
nothing on support if customers didn't use it; either way; problem solved.

Rennie

Armin Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Armin Steinhoff » Sun Aug 03, 2003 7:11 pm

Kevin Stallard wrote:
I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....
Which EULA ? You mean the distribution license?

If yes ... then tell me how it is possible to distribute a run-time
license without hardware and without being an OEM!!

Hope you can find a solution ...

Armin





Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable

problem I

have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and

round

and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you can look

good

to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you

are

willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO

warranty

to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...

Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for your

troubles

in regards to the installer.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28567C.D8982821@web.de...

Camz, I can't follow you.

The only I understand is that you are not familiar with non
C-development systems ...

- Jutta


camz@passageway.com wrote:

Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:

Yes ... I'm the *DEVELOPER* and I'm not an OEM or VAR.

So there is no issue with you buying qnx runtimes and then

offering

them

to your customers (aside from not being able to easily package

that

up

for them to install).


Just to make it simple and clear: I'm not the OEM and I'm not

interested

to sell QNX.

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You don't have any problem

purchasing

the runtimes, your problem is that you don't want to do it.

That is

a

very different problem. In this case, the requirement for your

customer

to buy a development seat is not QSS's "fault", it is yours for

refusing

to sell the runtime licensing along with your product.


They have to give at least the warrenty that their system

works as

documented ...

Actually, they don't. And to be quite honest, you probably

don't

list

off

to your customers what the OS does since its an enabling layer

that

technically

does not do anything until you actually want to run an app.


Again: I'm not in the position to handle all warranty and

legal

issues

of their OS in place of QSSL.

Again, this is a restriction that *YOU* have placed on yourself.

In

all

honesty though, this "requirement" is not unique to you, or QNX.

You'd

have

the same issue with any other OS, so it's harldy fair to

complain

that

it

is QSS's fault that you would need to deal with it and are not

prepared

and/or

are unwilling to do so. Sounds like you want to be in the

business

of

writing software, but not in the business of selling it, and

just

hoping

that someone will magically pay you.


There are other alternatives :)

Sure, you could use Linux, have all the same issues, and not

have

anyone

to complain to. (you certainly wouldn't have any hope in hell of

providing

any sort of warranty for the OS, let alone any app developed on

it).

Cheers,
Camz.

--
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com


Kevin Stallard

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Kevin Stallard » Mon Aug 04, 2003 3:37 pm

Armin,

I'm not a lawyer but, show me in the EULA where Target System means
hardware. I can't find it.

Kevin

"Armin Steinhoff" <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:bgjet2$je$1@inn.qnx.com...
Kevin Stallard wrote:
I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....

Which EULA ? You mean the distribution license?

If yes ... then tell me how it is possible to distribute a run-time
license without hardware and without being an OEM!!

Hope you can find a solution ...

Armin







Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable

problem I

have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and

round

and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you can look

good

to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you

are

willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO

warranty

to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...

Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for your

troubles

in regards to the installer.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28567C.D8982821@web.de...

Camz, I can't follow you.

The only I understand is that you are not familiar with non
C-development systems ...

- Jutta


camz@passageway.com wrote:

Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:

Yes ... I'm the *DEVELOPER* and I'm not an OEM or VAR.

So there is no issue with you buying qnx runtimes and then

offering

them

to your customers (aside from not being able to easily package

that

up

for them to install).


Just to make it simple and clear: I'm not the OEM and I'm not

interested

to sell QNX.

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You don't have any problem

purchasing

the runtimes, your problem is that you don't want to do it.

That is

a

very different problem. In this case, the requirement for your

customer

to buy a development seat is not QSS's "fault", it is yours for

refusing

to sell the runtime licensing along with your product.


They have to give at least the warrenty that their system

works as

documented ...

Actually, they don't. And to be quite honest, you probably

don't

list

off

to your customers what the OS does since its an enabling layer

that

technically

does not do anything until you actually want to run an app.


Again: I'm not in the position to handle all warranty and

legal

issues

of their OS in place of QSSL.

Again, this is a restriction that *YOU* have placed on yourself.

In

all

honesty though, this "requirement" is not unique to you, or QNX.

You'd

have

the same issue with any other OS, so it's harldy fair to

complain

that

it

is QSS's fault that you would need to deal with it and are not

prepared

and/or

are unwilling to do so. Sounds like you want to be in the

business

of

writing software, but not in the business of selling it, and

just

hoping

that someone will magically pay you.


There are other alternatives :)

Sure, you could use Linux, have all the same issues, and not

have

anyone

to complain to. (you certainly wouldn't have any hope in hell of

providing

any sort of warranty for the OS, let alone any app developed on

it).

Cheers,
Camz.

--
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com



Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:10 pm

Bill,

.... and I'm certain you are answering on my answer to Kevin ;-)

Did I tell that YOU are advocating that anyone break the EULA ???
No, I didn't ! Please don't mix up my postings...

I told you that I don't think that you can resell PCs with pre-installed
QNX Runtime w/o additional QNX-based software if QSSL should sell
separate runtimes ...at least according their current agreements.

Prices are relative and dependent of the value you have with a product.
For a single huge plant it's not hard to accept high prices, but for
small devices or stuff which you can compare directly in the market with
competing products with similar functionality, you have also to look
what will be acceptable.

BTW, I've no problem with the QNX6 runtime prices! Just in opposite,
it's the first time that QNX runtime prices could be acceptable for the
Soft-PLC market :-) The prices will be acceptable even when being
a little bit higher or in 5 pcs or 10 pcs packs for QNX Target systems
if you have not to buy Momentics.

Cheers,
Jutta



Bill Caroselli wrote:
Jutta

I think your missing teh point. I'm certain that you missed the point when
you replied to my post.
I'm NOT advocating that anyone break the EULA.

I've worked with QNX for 17 years and I'd like to see them around for
another 17 years. So I know they need to make some money.

But I'm saying that QSSL should make it much easier to comply with the EULA.
If they price their product so astronomically high for individuals and small
companies then people will bend the rules. I'm saying make the rules more
fair and most people will honor them.

I have sold add on products for QNX. I just supply the software and give
support for installing and using it. I will also give support for QNX in
general (for an added price).

Wouldn't it be a good thing if QSSL let me buy say 20 runtimes and resell
them one at a time? They would make some money from people who might
otherwise have just used NC inappropriately *AND* I would assume the
responsibility of fielding tech support questions from people that I sold
the product (QNX runtime) to.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I
have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and
round
and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you can look
good
to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you
are
willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO
warranty
to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...
Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for your
troubles
in regards to the installer.

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28567C.D8982821@web.de...

Camz, I can't follow you.

The only I understand is that you are not familiar with non
C-development systems ...

- Jutta


camz@passageway.com wrote:

Armin Steinhoff <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote:
Yes ... I'm the *DEVELOPER* and I'm not an OEM or VAR.

So there is no issue with you buying qnx runtimes and then
offering
them
to your customers (aside from not being able to easily package
that
up
for them to install).

Just to make it simple and clear: I'm not the OEM and I'm not
interested
to sell QNX.

Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You don't have any problem
purchasing
the runtimes, your problem is that you don't want to do it.
That is
a
very different problem. In this case, the requirement for your
customer
to buy a development seat is not QSS's "fault", it is yours for
refusing
to sell the runtime licensing along with your product.

They have to give at least the warrenty that their system
works as
documented ...

Actually, they don't. And to be quite honest, you probably
don't
list
off
to your customers what the OS does since its an enabling layer
that
technically
does not do anything until you actually want to run an app.

Again: I'm not in the position to handle all warranty and
legal
issues
of their OS in place of QSSL.

Again, this is a restriction that *YOU* have placed on yourself.
In
all
honesty though, this "requirement" is not unique to you, or QNX.
You'd
have
the same issue with any other OS, so it's harldy fair to
complain
that
it
is QSS's fault that you would need to deal with it and are not
prepared
and/or
are unwilling to do so. Sounds like you want to be in the
business
of
writing software, but not in the business of selling it, and
just
hoping
that someone will magically pay you.

There are other alternatives :)

Sure, you could use Linux, have all the same issues, and not
have
anyone
to complain to. (you certainly wouldn't have any hope in hell of
providing
any sort of warranty for the OS, let alone any app developed on
it).

Cheers,
Camz.

--
Martin Zimmerman camz@passageway.com
Camz Software Enterprises www.passageway.com/camz/qnx/
QNX Programming & Consulting www.qnxzone.com

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:19 pm

Kevin,

have a look to http://www.qnx.com/licensing/
there you can find links for OEMs/VARs

Have also a look to their short form :
H o w o u r s o f t w a r e g e t s t o y o u :
QNX Software Systems Ltd. (“QSS”) licenses its real time operating
system software to Value Added Resellers (VARs) and Original Equipment
Manufacturers (OEMs) for integration into their Product. The VAR / OEM
configures the QNX RTOS software (“Software”) to suit its purposes,
integrates it into their own hardware and software environment and
offers the product to its customers (of which presumably you are one).

In order to make it more clear, QSSL has also a graphic online:
http://www.qnx.com/licensing/QNXLicensingModel.pdf
.... and you will read that the distributed Target system
is clearly defined as:
" QNX Software, OEM Software & O E M H a r d w a r e "

Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses + 3rd party
software _but_ w/o hardware...

Good luck,
Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:
Armin,

I'm not a lawyer but, show me in the EULA where Target System means
hardware. I can't find it.

Kevin

"Armin Steinhoff" <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:bgjet2$je$1@inn.qnx.com...
Kevin Stallard wrote:
I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....

Which EULA ? You mean the distribution license?

If yes ... then tell me how it is possible to distribute a run-time
license without hardware and without being an OEM!!

Hope you can find a solution ...

Armin

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round and
round and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you
can look good to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but you
are willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has NO
warranty to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...

Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for
your troubles in regards to the installer.

Kevin Stallard

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Kevin Stallard » Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:53 pm

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2EA3C2.36569E80@web.de...
Kevin,


Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses + 3rd party
software _but_ w/o hardware...
I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...

To quote the definition of Target System:

"Target System" means a product fitting the Target Description on the
Runtime Quotation into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated, and each of which must: (i) significantly enhance the function
and value of the Software, and (ii) have substantially different principal
purposes than those of the Software."

and to partially quote what license you have as a purchasor of QNX Momentics

B2.4 License. "Subject to the terms and conditions of this
Agreement.....QSS hereby grants to OEM for the term of this Agreement a
non-exclusive , personal and non-transferable limited license to:
(a) REPRODUCE, as an integral part of a TARGET SYSTEM (emph added), one copy
of the Software (read QNX here) for each License Sticker that OEM (read
developer who has purchased Momentics here) has purchased from QSS or its
local authorized QNX distributor for the purpose of manufacturing TARGET
SYSTEMS......

Again...the question is...where is the EULA does Target System equalte
hardware?

If one does exist...the paragraphs and subsections are identified by numbers
and letters....

I challenge you to give me the exact reference to where you think it means
it must include hardware...you can't.

Kevin

Good luck,
Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

Armin,

I'm not a lawyer but, show me in the EULA where Target System means
hardware. I can't find it.

Kevin

"Armin Steinhoff" <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:bgjet2$je$1@inn.qnx.com...
Kevin Stallard wrote:
I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that
you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....

Which EULA ? You mean the distribution license?

If yes ... then tell me how it is possible to distribute a run-time
license without hardware and without being an OEM!!

Hope you can find a solution ...

Armin

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have
really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you
to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it
has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for
all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round
and
round and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you
can look good to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but
you
are willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has
NO
warranty to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...

Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for
your troubles in regards to the installer.

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:56 pm

Kevin Stallard wrote:
"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2EA3C2.36569E80@web.de...
Kevin,
you removed the link to the Software Licensing Model in my
previous posting. Did you have a look to it ??
Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses
+ 3rd party software _but_ w/o hardware...

I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...
"EULA" is used commonly for different agreements.
We are currently talking about distribution, right?
To quote the definition of Target System:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Target System" means a p r o d u c t
fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated,
The meaning of Target for soft- & hardware:

a) Non OS-Runtimes are often called TARGET
b) Targets will need hardware (PC-system) incl. an OS-runtime

Target System = Target + PC-hardware + OS-runtime
= a p r o d u c t (not separate components)

- Jutta


and each of which must: (i) significantly enhance the function
and value of the Software, and (ii) have substantially different principal
purposes than those of the Software."

and to partially quote what license you have as a purchasor of QNX Momentics

B2.4 License. "Subject to the terms and conditions of this
Agreement.....QSS hereby grants to OEM for the term of this Agreement a
non-exclusive , personal and non-transferable limited license to:
(a) REPRODUCE, as an integral part of a TARGET SYSTEM (emph added), one copy
of the Software (read QNX here) for each License Sticker that OEM (read
developer who has purchased Momentics here) has purchased from QSS or its
local authorized QNX distributor for the purpose of manufacturing TARGET
SYSTEMS......

Again...the question is...where is the EULA does Target System equalte
hardware?

If one does exist...the paragraphs and subsections are identified by numbers
and letters....

I challenge you to give me the exact reference to where you think it means
it must include hardware...you can't.

Kevin


Good luck,
Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

Armin,

I'm not a lawyer but, show me in the EULA where Target System means
hardware. I can't find it.

Kevin

"Armin Steinhoff" <a-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:bgjet2$je$1@inn.qnx.com...
Kevin Stallard wrote:
I have copy of the EULA...I've read it...it is very plain to me that
you
have a grip and you don't want to find a solution....

Which EULA ? You mean the distribution license?

If yes ... then tell me how it is possible to distribute a run-time
license without hardware and without being an OEM!!

Hope you can find a solution ...

Armin

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F2A2BC2.763D20F6@web.de...

Kevin, I'm not sure if it's still amusing for you when you have
really
read all legal stuff...

It's not very amusing for me to get again and again advices from you
to
break the EULA from QSSL!

Notice, when we are not willing to warrent for an OS because of it
has
to be sold as "customised version" although an original product is
requested, so it doesn't mean that we don't give full warrenty for
all
sold software and hardware products.

Kevin, your ideas are sometimes unrealistic ...

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Whats so funny is that you guys are straining at the most solvable
problem I have ever seen.

Thanks for the laughs...it's been amusing watch you two go round
and
round and round when the problem can be very simply solved and you
can look good to your customers to boot.

Imagine you don't want to make an install CD for your customer, but
you
are willing to port your app to a different OS. And an OS that has
NO
warranty to boot....

Priceless

Kevin

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3F28DFC3.F5001AAB@web.de...

Kevin,

1. please read carefully all legal stuff from QSSL

2. please stop your advice when you don't understand the topic

3. notice, industrial users (VARs, OEMs, not hobbyists or freaks!)
want original software products and no second hand copies from
whatever source when they need a separate (un-bundled) Runtime
license for a Target system.

- Jutta


Kevin Stallard wrote:

1. Buy QNX runtimes
2. Make CD with your software and QNX Runtime installer
3. Give CD to customer.
4. Include QNX Runtime in purchase price and a bit more for
your troubles in regards to the installer.

Kevin Stallard

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Kevin Stallard » Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:54 pm

Jutta,


you removed the link to the Software Licensing Model in my
previous posting. Did you have a look to it ??

The Software Licensing Model is not a legal document. Besides...where does
it say this graphic is all encompassing of the EULA? I didn't sign a
Software Licensing Model...I signed an EULA.


Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses
+ 3rd party software _but_ w/o hardware...

I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...

"EULA" is used commonly for different agreements.
We are currently talking about distribution, right?

Yes


To quote the definition of Target System:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Target System" means a p r o d u c t
fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where does it say Target Description has to include some specific hardware
that you also have to manufacture? I don't see it.


into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated,

The meaning of Target for soft- & hardware:

a) Non OS-Runtimes are often called TARGET
b) Targets will need hardware (PC-system) incl. an OS-runtime

This isn't in the EULA. This is *your* interpretation. There is nothing
in the EULA that spells this out. I asked you to point to the paragraph in
the EULA, not in your interpretation, but in the EULA itself where it says
Target System *must* also include some specific hardware you manufacture.
Again, my point is that it isn't there...



The only thing that even comes close is what you highlighted above.
"fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation". If you *don't*
specify any specific hardware you are going to produce....how is it that
your Target System must include that hardware?



A part of a Target System I'm working on does not specify any specific
hardware. Sure, the software has to be installed on some piece of hardware
for it to work, but no where in the EULA does it say I (or my company) has
to do the installation, nor does it say that I have to be the seller of the
hardware on which the software will eventually run. All it says is I have
to make sure that every copy (read CD-ROM with QNX runtimes and my software)
of the Target System I send to a customer has been purchased and that it has
been licensed (see Section B2.4 sub-section (a) ) and that I am in
compliance with Section B3.4 "Distribution of Copies".



Now...once again...I ask you, where in the EULA does it say that a Target
System must include some specific hardware? I don't want your
interpretation. I want to know where in the EULA itself it says that I must
include hardware when I send out a *copy* of my Target System.



Words *do* mean things.



Kevin

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:54 pm

Kevin,

when you talk about a raven, you don't mention that it is black...
a "black raven" would be a tautology.

If you talk about an unusual raven which is white,
so you mention the color ;-)

The same with a "Target System", or do you talk about a "Hardware Target
System"?

A Target System is a complete product which is running, and not just
some components (_for_ a target system) which you have still to
install...

There are some differences for OEM and VAR agreements, but a target
system includes always x86 or MIPS, PPC etc. hardware + software
(targets) + OS runtime

If you don't believe, ask your distributor...

What about some comments from QSSL ???

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:
Jutta,

you removed the link to the Software Licensing Model in my
previous posting. Did you have a look to it ??

The Software Licensing Model is not a legal document. Besides...where does
it say this graphic is all encompassing of the EULA? I didn't sign a
Software Licensing Model...I signed an EULA.



Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses
+ 3rd party software _but_ w/o hardware...

I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...

"EULA" is used commonly for different agreements.
We are currently talking about distribution, right?

Yes



To quote the definition of Target System:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Target System" means a p r o d u c t
fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where does it say Target Description has to include some specific hardware
that you also have to manufacture? I don't see it.

into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated,

The meaning of Target for soft- & hardware:

a) Non OS-Runtimes are often called TARGET
b) Targets will need hardware (PC-system) incl. an OS-runtime

This isn't in the EULA. This is *your* interpretation. There is nothing
in the EULA that spells this out. I asked you to point to the paragraph in
the EULA, not in your interpretation, but in the EULA itself where it says
Target System *must* also include some specific hardware you manufacture.
Again, my point is that it isn't there...

The only thing that even comes close is what you highlighted above.
"fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation". If you *don't*
specify any specific hardware you are going to produce....how is it that
your Target System must include that hardware?

A part of a Target System I'm working on does not specify any specific
hardware. Sure, the software has to be installed on some piece of hardware
for it to work, but no where in the EULA does it say I (or my company) has
to do the installation, nor does it say that I have to be the seller of the
hardware on which the software will eventually run. All it says is I have
to make sure that every copy (read CD-ROM with QNX runtimes and my software)
of the Target System I send to a customer has been purchased and that it has
been licensed (see Section B2.4 sub-section (a) ) and that I am in
compliance with Section B3.4 "Distribution of Copies".

Now...once again...I ask you, where in the EULA does it say that a Target
System must include some specific hardware? I don't want your
interpretation. I want to know where in the EULA itself it says that I must
include hardware when I send out a *copy* of my Target System.

Words *do* mean things.

Kevin

Igor Kovalenko

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Igor Kovalenko » Thu Aug 07, 2003 4:42 am

"Rennie Allen" <rgallen@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:bgdu8f$s2h$1@inn.qnx.com...
Bill Caroselli wrote:

I would love QSSL to sell runtimes only too. But there is a very
practicle
problem.

If someone buys something, they have right to expact a certain amoutn of
support. So if I were to write a super-automated grmip frizzle and tell
my
potnetial customers all they need is a runnning QNX system to install my
product, they may think that they can go out and spend $15 to buy a QNX
runtime system. Now, when they get their CD, just imagine if it didn't
install right out of the box!?!?!?!? So they try to call QSSL for help?
If
QSSL has to answer the phone just once they already lost money on the
deal.
I wouldn't blame QSSL for not fielding those calls.

Many other companies (like Microsoft) have solved this problem. When you
call
the support line they ask for a credit card. $150.00 flat fee per support
question. A customer is correct in expecting that support is available.
They
are naive if they assume support is free. QSS would either A) make a tidy
little profit on support if customers used the facility or B) expend
almost
nothing on support if customers didn't use it; either way; problem solved.
Phone support personnel and infrastructure of adequate (to handle gazillion
of small users) size must be created and paid for. This is a large
investment that won't be returned if customers did not use it.

What a curcus has become of this abused thread...
-- igor

Dave Rempel

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Dave Rempel » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:40 pm

You already got one from Eric, he even said that they are looking at it
and listening.

I'm surprised this thread has continued as long as it has, can we please
move on?

Dave


Jutta Steinhoff wrote:
Kevin,

when you talk about a raven, you don't mention that it is black...
a "black raven" would be a tautology.

If you talk about an unusual raven which is white,
so you mention the color ;-)

The same with a "Target System", or do you talk about a "Hardware Target
System"?

A Target System is a complete product which is running, and not just
some components (_for_ a target system) which you have still to
install...

There are some differences for OEM and VAR agreements, but a target
system includes always x86 or MIPS, PPC etc. hardware + software
(targets) + OS runtime

If you don't believe, ask your distributor...

What about some comments from QSSL ???

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Jutta,


you removed the link to the Software Licensing Model in my
previous posting. Did you have a look to it ??

The Software Licensing Model is not a legal document. Besides...where does
it say this graphic is all encompassing of the EULA? I didn't sign a
Software Licensing Model...I signed an EULA.


Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses
+ 3rd party software _but_ w/o hardware...

I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...

"EULA" is used commonly for different agreements.
We are currently talking about distribution, right?

Yes


To quote the definition of Target System:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Target System" means a p r o d u c t
fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where does it say Target Description has to include some specific hardware
that you also have to manufacture? I don't see it.


into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated,

The meaning of Target for soft- & hardware:

a) Non OS-Runtimes are often called TARGET
b) Targets will need hardware (PC-system) incl. an OS-runtime

This isn't in the EULA. This is *your* interpretation. There is nothing
in the EULA that spells this out. I asked you to point to the paragraph in
the EULA, not in your interpretation, but in the EULA itself where it says
Target System *must* also include some specific hardware you manufacture.
Again, my point is that it isn't there...

The only thing that even comes close is what you highlighted above.
"fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation". If you *don't*
specify any specific hardware you are going to produce....how is it that
your Target System must include that hardware?

A part of a Target System I'm working on does not specify any specific
hardware. Sure, the software has to be installed on some piece of hardware
for it to work, but no where in the EULA does it say I (or my company) has
to do the installation, nor does it say that I have to be the seller of the
hardware on which the software will eventually run. All it says is I have
to make sure that every copy (read CD-ROM with QNX runtimes and my software)
of the Target System I send to a customer has been purchased and that it has
been licensed (see Section B2.4 sub-section (a) ) and that I am in
compliance with Section B3.4 "Distribution of Copies".

Now...once again...I ask you, where in the EULA does it say that a Target
System must include some specific hardware? I don't want your
interpretation. I want to know where in the EULA itself it says that I must
include hardware when I send out a *copy* of my Target System.

Words *do* mean things.

Kevin

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:43 pm

Igor Kovalenko wrote:
[... ] Now, when they get their CD, just imagine if it didn't
install right out of the box!?!?!?!? So they try to call QSSL for help?
If QSSL has to answer the phone just once they already lost money on the
deal. I wouldn't blame QSSL for not fielding those calls.

Many other companies (like Microsoft) have solved this problem. When you
call the support line they ask for a credit card. $150.00 flat fee per support
question. A customer is correct in expecting that support is available. They
are naive if they assume support is free. QSS would either A) make a tidy
little profit on support if customers used the facility or B) expend almost
nothing on support if customers didn't use it; either way; problem solved.


Phone support personnel and infrastructure of adequate (to handle gazillion
of small users) size must be created and paid for. This is a large
investment that won't be returned if customers did not use it.
It's an unrealistic szenario....
charging for such support questions at phone is done mostly via special
phone numbers which include already the support fee per minute, so you
don't need much infrastructure for it.

OTOH, the "gazillion of small users" will be also Momentics customers
who are happy to pass the license as "QSSL CD" to their endusers who
will need a safty copy of the whole installed software of a plant.

Customers who would buy the CDs directly from QSSx are not special
idiots compared with Momentics customers. They also choose their
hardware carefully and talk with 3rd party vendors in order to discuss
recommended and not recommended hardware configurations for their
application. And if QNX doesn't install right out of the box, be sure
the first call for help goes to a 3rd Party... that means they will
behave in the same way like Win, Linux or other OS users...

- Jutta

Jutta Steinhoff

Re: QNX6 vs WinCE?

Post by Jutta Steinhoff » Thu Aug 07, 2003 3:57 pm

David,

Eric's answer was reg. a runtime version on CD, as well as a separate
product.

This discussion is reg. the definition of "Target System" what has
nothing to do with the way how runtimes are delivered to VARs or OEMs.

May be you are able to give a clear statement if the term "Target
System" in the EULAs or whatever agreements from QSSL is including
x86 or xy hardware + QNX-based software(targets) + QNX-runtime ?

BTW, a clear and short statement from QSSL in the beginning had
avoided endless interpretations and strange proposals how to resell
runtime licenses according the current license model.

- Jutta




Dave Rempel wrote:
You already got one from Eric, he even said that they are looking at it
and listening.

I'm surprised this thread has continued as long as it has, can we please
move on?

Dave

Jutta Steinhoff wrote:
Kevin,

when you talk about a raven, you don't mention that it is black...
a "black raven" would be a tautology.

If you talk about an unusual raven which is white,
so you mention the color ;-)

The same with a "Target System", or do you talk about a "Hardware Target
System"?

A Target System is a complete product which is running, and not just
some components (_for_ a target system) which you have still to
install...

There are some differences for OEM and VAR agreements, but a target
system includes always x86 or MIPS, PPC etc. hardware + software
(targets) + OS runtime

If you don't believe, ask your distributor...

What about some comments from QSSL ???

- Jutta




Kevin Stallard wrote:

Jutta,


you removed the link to the Software Licensing Model in my
previous posting. Did you have a look to it ??

The Software Licensing Model is not a legal document. Besides...where does
it say this graphic is all encompassing of the EULA? I didn't sign a
Software Licensing Model...I signed an EULA.


Try to find a paragraph about reselling QNX runtime licenses
+ 3rd party software _but_ w/o hardware...

I don't need a copy of the EULA I have one...

"EULA" is used commonly for different agreements.
We are currently talking about distribution, right?

Yes


To quote the definition of Target System:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

"Target System" means a p r o d u c t
fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Where does it say Target Description has to include some specific hardware
that you also have to manufacture? I don't see it.


into which the Software has been wholly or partially
integrated,

The meaning of Target for soft- & hardware:

a) Non OS-Runtimes are often called TARGET
b) Targets will need hardware (PC-system) incl. an OS-runtime

This isn't in the EULA. This is *your* interpretation. There is nothing
in the EULA that spells this out. I asked you to point to the paragraph in
the EULA, not in your interpretation, but in the EULA itself where it says
Target System *must* also include some specific hardware you manufacture.
Again, my point is that it isn't there...

The only thing that even comes close is what you highlighted above.
"fitting the Target Description on the Runtime Quotation". If you *don't*
specify any specific hardware you are going to produce....how is it that
your Target System must include that hardware?

A part of a Target System I'm working on does not specify any specific
hardware. Sure, the software has to be installed on some piece of hardware
for it to work, but no where in the EULA does it say I (or my company) has
to do the installation, nor does it say that I have to be the seller of the
hardware on which the software will eventually run. All it says is I have
to make sure that every copy (read CD-ROM with QNX runtimes and my software)
of the Target System I send to a customer has been purchased and that it has
been licensed (see Section B2.4 sub-section (a) ) and that I am in
compliance with Section B3.4 "Distribution of Copies".

Now...once again...I ask you, where in the EULA does it say that a Target
System must include some specific hardware? I don't want your
interpretation. I want to know where in the EULA itself it says that I must
include hardware when I send out a *copy* of my Target System.

Words *do* mean things.

Kevin

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