Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support??

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Jim Lambert

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Jim Lambert » Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:20 pm

I think that is what Bill was saying - he "used to" talk to us. Why not
anymore? BTW, a google search finds over 100 messages from Dan over the
years on comp.os.qnx.

Jim

"Eric Johnson" <eric@qnx.com> wrote in message
news:aje5fo$dq6$1@nntp.qnx.com...
I can't answer the last part. Dan, our CEO, is very involved in our
business
and does talk with customers. I don't think it's realistic to expect him
to
enter into public discussion such as this one.

"Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS)" <QTPS@EarthLink.net> wrote in message
news:aje0di$f9g$1@inn.qnx.com...
Eric, you forgot the last part.

"Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS)" <QTPS@EarthLink.net> wrote in message
news:ajc0dl$1ue$1@inn.qnx.com...

"Eric Johnson" <eric@qnx.com> wrote in message
news:ajblh1$a46$1@nntp.qnx.com...

.. and just to reiterate, the above is just for the benefit of your
understanding and is not an official statement of QNX Software
Systems.
I
don't have authority to speak officially for the company on this
matter.


It's obviously long past high time that someone from the very top DOES
GET
INVOLVED!

Dan you used to talk to the real people that made you. What's going
on?



Guest

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Guest » Thu Aug 15, 2002 8:02 pm

Eric Johnson <eric@qnx.com> wrote:
You make it sound like we have only once active code branch (the one that we
develop new features on), and that no generally available patches are issued
after we add features to the head branch. That isn't true.
As far as the general public is concerned this is the case. The only times
that I can recall (as a small insignificant customer) the QSS actually has
had patches available for multiple version is with the major versions. QNX2
continued to receive patches in the early years of QNX4, and to a lesser
extent, QNX4 has some patches available while QNX6 is not the mainstream
version of QNX.

I have *NEVER* seen availablility of patches for multiple minor revisions
occur concurrently. (ie. Once 4.25 was released there were no more patches
to 4.24 or 4.23). The same has been evidenced with QNX6, 6.1 stopped all
patches to 6.0, and 6.2 appears to have stopped all patches to 6.1.
If you can suggest a model that would allow us to do this without taking a
loss on the extra activity, we're always open to ideas. The current model is
based on having those customers pay for the extra service we give them,
which makes sense to me. :-)
I agree with Rick in beleiving that the current model is flawed (or at least,
not ideal). The logic has more to do with why people choose QNX for a project
than it does with how much money a customer has to spend. If I build a
device with QNX 6.1, manufacture 2000 or them and install them around the
globe, upgrading them all to the next rev of the OS is more likely to NOT be
an option than anything else. If QSS bumps from 6.1 to 6.2 one month after
we ship, we are basically screwed unless we can scrape up the cash for QSS
to make the custom patch for us. If we can't afford that, then I am willing
to bet we will look at alternatives to QSS for future projects so that we don't
have our support undermined by QSS releasing a new rev.

I would suggest that a viable middle ground would be to provide the type of
support in terms of patches for a limited number of previous revisions.
So, with 6.2 released, that might include 6.1C, and 6.0B, but nothing else.
When 6.3 comes out, this would shift to 6.2X, and 6.1C, but drop 6.0B at that
time.

Rick is talking about investment protection. If you want repeat customers
this is a good idea.

Cheers,
Camz.

Miguel Simon

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Miguel Simon » Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:38 am

Hi Eric...

Eric Johnson wrote:
Updates between new releases (6.1.0 -> 6.2.0, 6.2.0 -> 6.2.1) are not
necessarily free. We've introduced new features or functionality in these
cases. As far as I know we've always given out the patches free of charge
(e.g. 6.2.0 to 6.2.0 A). As I said, the crux of it is the question of how
I wonder if you could say something with regard to the support package
that customers have to buy bundled with rtp6.2.0-PE. Would this cover
-for the duration of the support- what you call "new releases" such as
6.2.0 -> 6.2.x -> ?? ? I think that the answer is rather obvious, but I
would like to hear from you if possible. Also, what happens when the
support runs out? Would the customer be able to buy more support that
would cover new releases such as 6.2.x -> 6.3.x?? If you can not
answer, I wonder if you could point to the appropriate place or person
that could provide the answers? Thanks.

Regards...

Miguel.


much effort gets put into producing patch releases vs new 'feature enhanced'
releases. While obviously we could put all our effort into just patching
what's already been released, that would hinder our ability to develop new
technologies that solve problems for our customers, and would also cause our
technology to fall behind our competitors. So, we try to strike a balance
that allows us to have a healthy business and keep our technology and
overall solutions moving forward. On occasion when the demands for new
features are very great, it has caused us to move rapidly forward on new
technology while doing relatively little work on patches to current
releases. At these times there have always been pressing business reasons to
do so.

Miguel Simon

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Miguel Simon » Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:45 am

Hi Bill...

Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
The problem with this approach is this:

QSSL is guaranteeing (I mean put it in writing and seal it in stone) that no
one will ever get bug free software! (Yes, I know that most software is
never perfectly bug free.)
This would be very similar to M$ model... correct?

Just thinking out loud.

Miguel.

But your saying that we will never get fixed software unless we buy software
with new features too. That's crazy! Software only starts to approach the
appearance of bug free when you go through several releases of fixes WITHOUT
new features.

On top of that, getting FDA or other government agency approval of new
software means that you're starting the approval process over again. If you
have software that is already approved then getting a bug fix approved is
usually much quicker and easier.

There have been bug fixes promised for 6.0.1b for almost two years. So now
we know we'll never see them unless we buy and pay for new bugs?!?!

(See last line below.)

Robert Krten

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Robert Krten » Fri Aug 16, 2002 1:53 am

Miguel Simon <simon@ou.edu> wrote:
Hi Bill...

Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:

The problem with this approach is this:

QSSL is guaranteeing (I mean put it in writing and seal it in stone) that no
one will ever get bug free software! (Yes, I know that most software is
never perfectly bug free.)
This would be very similar to M$ model... correct?
Oh, poo poo :-)

While I'll certainly be the *last* person in the world to rush to M$'s defence, in
the interests of fairness, let me just cite *one* example.

I recently purchased a 120G HD, and was running W98. Why W98? 'cuz it wasn't
broken (for what I do, which is PowerPoint and Word). Fdisk was, however, broken.
I went to the M$ website, and downloaded a new fdisk that fixed the problem.
How much? $0. No charge. A bug in the O/S (everything is the O/S in M$ land :-))
Just thinking out loud.
Just playing the other side; and incidentally agreeing with some amount of "fixes for
free"... I understand it's a push-pull kind of thing, and "free" is a vague term in
terms of QSSL's R&D allocation.

How about this -- instead of a blanket "all bugs are fixed for free in all previous
versions", or "no bugs are fixed in any version unless you pay $BIGBUX$", doesn't it
make sense to have some kind of compromise based on two things: a) the development
effort required to fix the bug, and b) the severity of the bug?

This way, if there's some obscure bug that requires a complete kernel rewrite :-) and
it only affects one customer out of 10000; I'd expect that to be a "paid" bug that
gets fixed in the next major release. If there's a printf() format string that could
use an extra leading "0" in a stupid utility, I'd expect that for free in all
releases since day one. :-)

Cheers,
-RK
But your saying that we will never get fixed software unless we buy software
with new features too. That's crazy! Software only starts to approach the
appearance of bug free when you go through several releases of fixes WITHOUT
new features.

On top of that, getting FDA or other government agency approval of new
software means that you're starting the approval process over again. If you
have software that is already approved then getting a bug fix approved is
usually much quicker and easier.

There have been bug fixes promised for 6.0.1b for almost two years. So now
we know we'll never see them unless we buy and pay for new bugs?!?!

(See last line below.)
--
Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices +1 613 599 8316.
Realtime Systems Architecture, Books, Video-based and Instructor-led
Training and Consulting at www.parse.com.
Email my initials at parse dot com.

Eric Johnson

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Eric Johnson » Fri Aug 16, 2002 2:17 pm

"Miguel Simon" <simon@ou.edu> wrote in message
news:3D5C578B.5050100@ou.edu...
Hi Eric...

Eric Johnson wrote:


Updates between new releases (6.1.0 -> 6.2.0, 6.2.0 -> 6.2.1) are not
necessarily free. We've introduced new features or functionality in
these
cases. As far as I know we've always given out the patches free of
charge
(e.g. 6.2.0 to 6.2.0 A). As I said, the crux of it is the question of
how


I wonder if you could say something with regard to the support package
that customers have to buy bundled with rtp6.2.0-PE. Would this cover
-for the duration of the support- what you call "new releases" such as
6.2.0 -> 6.2.x -> ?? ?
Customers don't have to buy the support plan, but we do encourage it. Buying
a product without support is, IMHO, a risky proposition. The answer to your
question is yes. See
http://www.qnx.com/support/sd_techsuppo ... rtplan.pdf
I think that the answer is rather obvious, but I
would like to hear from you if possible. Also, what happens when the
support runs out? Would the customer be able to buy more support that
would cover new releases such as 6.2.x -> 6.3.x??
As far as I know we don't have a 'different' version of the standard support
plan for renewals (it would have to be different, since as you can see from
the link above, standard support includes access to updates and new
releases). I'll try to find out for sure but it may take a bit of time due
to people being on vacations.
If you can not
answer, I wonder if you could point to the appropriate place or person
that could provide the answers? Thanks.

Regards...

Miguel.



much effort gets put into producing patch releases vs new 'feature
enhanced'
releases. While obviously we could put all our effort into just patching
what's already been released, that would hinder our ability to develop
new
technologies that solve problems for our customers, and would also cause
our
technology to fall behind our competitors. So, we try to strike a
balance
that allows us to have a healthy business and keep our technology and
overall solutions moving forward. On occasion when the demands for new
features are very great, it has caused us to move rapidly forward on new
technology while doing relatively little work on patches to current
releases. At these times there have always been pressing business
reasons to
do so.


Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS)

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) » Fri Aug 16, 2002 5:28 pm

About a decade ago a worked for a company in dire financial straights. At
one point the CEO decided to sell our big IBM systems to a leasing company
and lease them back. It raised almost $100K. He figured that worked so
well he sold the same equipment to two other leasing companies.

How many times does QSSL want to sell the same bug fixes privately?

"Robert Krten" <nospam83@parse.com> wrote in message
news:ajhlur$8qd$1@inn.qnx.com...
How about this -- instead of a blanket "all bugs are fixed for free in all
previous
versions", or "no bugs are fixed in any version unless you pay $BIGBUX$",
doesn't it
make sense to have some kind of compromise based on two things: a) the
development
effort required to fix the bug, and b) the severity of the bug?

Cheers,
-RK

Rennie Allen

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Rennie Allen » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:42 am

Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
About a decade ago a worked for a company in dire financial straights. At
one point the CEO decided to sell our big IBM systems to a leasing company
and lease them back. It raised almost $100K. He figured that worked so
well he sold the same equipment to two other leasing companies.
He didn't, by chance, go on to get a job at Enron or Worldcom did he ;-)

Rennie

Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS)

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) » Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:23 pm

I don't know. I hope he's in jail by now.

BTW, that was only the tip of the iceberg. (I could tell you stories!)

"Rennie Allen" <rallen@csical.com> wrote in message
news:ajr6r1$5eh$1@inn.qnx.com...
Bill Caroselli (Q-TPS) wrote:
About a decade ago a worked for a company in dire financial straights.
At
one point the CEO decided to sell our big IBM systems to a leasing
company
and lease them back. It raised almost $100K. He figured that worked so
well he sold the same equipment to two other leasing companies.

He didn't, by chance, go on to get a job at Enron or Worldcom did he ;-)

Rennie

Jun

Re: Commercial update 6.1 -> 6.2 only as bundle with support

Post by Jun » Thu Sep 05, 2002 3:15 pm

"Jutta Steinhoff" <j-steinhoff@web.de> wrote in message
news:3D46CC0D.19B0FED3@web.de...
Hi all,

just I talked with a QNX 6.1 customer and asked him to update to 6.2
Hmm, he told me that it's too expensive for his small company ...

After the engineer did a good job to convience his boss to switch from
Linux to QNX6 they have bought the commercial version of QNX 6.1 (RTP)
incl. some Runtimes.
hmmm, I am interested in what the engineer did to convice his boss. Why
did he want to use QNX instead of Linux?


Recently he asked his QNX sales for an update to QNX 6.2 and he was
told that the update is only available as bundle with support for
~ $1,200US (exchanged amount from his currency)

He doesn't need direct support from his QNX sales and is going to stay
with QNX 6.1 now. His boss is a little bit upset about hidden costs,
so it becomes harder to justify QNX for next projects :-(

Are update bundles a new QSSL stragedy or is it a single case??
[It's our first customer with this strange experience ]

Jutta

P.S.
That customer is very happy with Rob's Neutrino book and the only
"update bundle" he would accept has to come with the video trainig
from Rob. ... anyone listening from QSSL-Sales ?? ;-)

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